Atlas Apologia (Formerly IDC)

Ep. 162: Unlocking the Mysteries of Revelation: Eschatology and the Age of the Church

May 23, 2023 Aleko
Atlas Apologia (Formerly IDC)
Ep. 162: Unlocking the Mysteries of Revelation: Eschatology and the Age of the Church
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Could you discern the season of the Messiah's return? Join us as we dive into eschatology and the end times, reflecting on the possibility of a 2000-year period from Christ's resurrection and the danger of becoming fixated on specific dates. Together, we explore prophecies from the Book of Revelation and how the measurements of the Tabernacle foreshadow the age of the Church, connecting them to the body, spirit, and soul of God.

As we share our insights on teaching Scripture, we discuss the importance of embodying the message and becoming the message we share. We reveal how our podcast has been instrumental in allowing us to grow in our understanding of Scripture and how teaching to learn can be incredibly effective. Delving deeper, we also analyze the symbolism within the Book of Revelation, examining the seven churches and the spiritual message hidden within the text.

Finally, we explore the intriguing parallels between the seven days of creation and the seven thousand years of church history. Looking at the beliefs of early Apostles and Christians, we discuss the implications of these parallels for the future. So join us for an enlightening and thought-provoking conversation that will deepen your understanding of eschatology, prophecy, and the end times.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to the IDC podcast, your number one source for a fierce defense of the Christian Gospel. This is Aleko, and I hope you're doing well. So, in short, today Michael and I are going to pick up the eschatology slash end time study again, where we dive into the book of Revelation. Michael and I have been discussing this topic off and on for about 20 years, and it is a fascinating one, to be sure. I hope you find it edifying. Just as a reminder, you can support the podcast by heading over to buymeacoffeecom forward slash ID podcast. Thank you so much for listening and we hope you show with friends. God bless, would you mind telling me we had for breakfast, just so I could test the audio real quick.

Speaker 2:

I'm trying to remember. I think I had the waffles actually.

Speaker 1:

Is that made from scratch?

Speaker 2:

No lazy waffles.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah, it's better, that's better We have kids.

Speaker 2:

Actually, autumn does make waffles and scratch periodically, but these were just lazy frozen waffles.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if I've ever had non frozen waffles before, or maybe at a restaurant I have I don't even know No actually I take that back. I was at a hotel once where they had one of those fancy wall flyers and you put the batter in and that was okay, it's okay. To me it's like. I think it's like ground pepper. I can't taste the difference of whether or not you're shaking it out of a you know McCormick thing, or if you're grinding it fresh. I believe that was a Jim Gaffigan joke as well. Can anyone tell if it's freshly ground, or you know? okay, so I was just telling Michael. By the way, our last eschatology study, what was that like two months ago, three months ago?

Speaker 2:

It must have been before you were out here. I feel like it must have been March or something, maybe even earlier.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so we've got a pretty good cadence going for these things. then I think, at the pace that we're going, the Messiah will return before we finish the revelation study So um, all right. So I was sharing with Michael that I caught this really interesting video online and I haven't actually, to be fair, watched all of it. I was called Messiah 2030. And in it, the gentleman. We're well aware of the fact that we should never be setting definitive dates and times, but, as Michael just brought up, christ did tell us that we will be able to discern the season right, and we'll we'll be able to gauge round about when things are about to kick off. And so this, this gentleman, even though the video is called Messiah 2030, he in no way is saying, hey, this is the definitive date, and he puts that disclaimer everywhere, at the beginning of the video, in the text under the video, but he does say this is, all things considered, this is round about the time. I believe, you know, we should see the return of the Messiah, and and Michael and I discussed this, i think, in our last eschatology or rather end time study um, we were more thinking of a 2040 date. Was it somewhere around there, or did I get that wrong?

Speaker 2:

I think you said 2040. I, I, uh, I'm more just based on the fact that it's a 2000 year church age. I'm, you know, I'm always like somewhere around 2000 years from Christ Was it, was it resurrected, or when the church was born, you know yeah yeah, so.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, i think, and that's precisely where this gentleman was at, and he creates a really really. The thing is I don't, you couldn't convince me it wasn't it isn't going to be a 2000 year period, but You know in terms of what, what year that would land on and what that would look like. I personally believe there are some discrepancies in the Western calendar And I do think that you know there are some things that you have to be mindful of if you are trying to gauge the year. But Ultimately, i think it's it's kind of a, in my opinion, kind of a fruitless endeavor. I think just knowing Christ and and being, you know, being in his presence is the most important thing. But, that being said, as we get into the book of Revelation It is the only book of the scripture which promises a blessing to the reader so clearly We are to be, you know, paying attention to these things just not making it I don't know if you want to jump in here, michael just not making it the The focal point of our world. You know counting down the days, or we should be expecting the Messiah's return, but you know we shouldn't be. You know I Once heard somebody say that. You know there have been times in history, in recent history, where people have gotten What one might call rapture itis, where they kind of abandon all of their responsibilities and they, yeah, forget about life in general because they're like anytime now and, yeah, of course, we should be expecting the Messiah at any time. We should be ready, we should have our you know, our our Lamps ready. You know expecting the bridegroom, but It, you know it, it shouldn't become a false idol as well. Where we're, we're forgetting the work of the Lord and we're not, you know, for focusing on him.

Speaker 2:

I mean knowing the date would be really unhealthy if we knew today and it's pretty one of the reasons God probably doesn't tell us, because If God was like it's all, it's all, the end of the ages, april 5th, 2031, everyone would be like, okay, i'm just gonna kind of live for me a bit, you know, and then pretty, when I get to about 2028. I'll start taking things seriously in that last year. Man, you can't help people can treat diets. You know, like, when I get to that point, that's what I'm really gonna take it seriously, you know, and It's always good to live in a sense of perpetual expectation. And also, you know Christ is always present to you know He there is, he is coming, but he's also present in our lives, he dwells within us. We already have the beautiful reality of his fellowship, even though he's not visible. So you know, that's something to be nourished. Even if we were in the 1300s and we Looked at the prophecies and thought there's no way he's coming in our lifetime, then we should still be nurturing and Our connection to Christ and focusing on him. So but yeah, i think you know also, if someone was expecting Christ in the first century which they were, well, you know, around the time. Obviously he was technically born BC probably, but a lot of people were expecting him based on the prophecies of the Old Testament. But You know there's an element to where his coming was fulfilled, you know, when he was born and as elements where his coming was fulfilled when he started his ministry and was revealed and started preaching and Working miracles. Then there's an element that was fulfilled when he was crucified and resurrected. And I'm not saying that things are gonna be the same as that, but I mean there could be a sequence of major events to where, whatever date were everyone would be fixated on is actually just the first and That sequence of events that culminates in Christ coming. You know that's a good point, yeah, yeah, so we don't. It's not necessarily, even if there's an exact date of what we hope for or whatever. There might be a sequence of major events that are all really important in of themselves. So yeah, i mean it's, but I think there's no point in burying your head in the sand like for me. I'm like I believe it's 2000 year church age and I Would have no idea exactly what that means as to where the date would be, but I'm like we're somewhere. You know, roughly in to me 2032 roughly, is this 2000 years from from when Christ was crucified and resurrected in the church was born. Doesn't mean anything's gonna happen in 2032, but we're somewhere. We're just somewhere in that window. It feels like we're getting into that window where there's nothing wrong in having expectation In general based on there being a 2000 year church age, but there's nothing to really act upon. You know, there's nothing to really circle in a calendar. It's a spiritual reality that's unfolding. So But it is exciting, it's really exciting.

Speaker 1:

Certainly Yeah. and to build off of that, i I had two points. one I sincerely hope we don't find out that the church age actually started at the fall of the Jerusalem temple and then, but I mean, i think any any Christian, or at least most, would probably agree it was at Pentecost, yeah, or you know, i guess you can make the case for At the crucifixion, you know, but I don't know, i think that would require a little more study. I don't know if you had any input, had any input on that, i think it's coming over.

Speaker 2:

Like you know, i think the church age began and you could argue that the age of the law was still in process too, because in Hebrews Paul talks about that which is obsolete, will shortly pass away, like talking about the, the old covenant, and it hadn't really passed away yet until 70 AD, when everything, everything was brought to an end. So you could argue there's some overlap, but really as soon as the church was born, really the old covenant was. You know, god had a new covenant, people basically. So Yeah, i would. I'm more confident that it would be dated from from the birth of the church. I have considered that 70 AD as well, it's possible, but Yeah, i guess we'll see. I guess we'll see, but it is exciting for sure. Amen.

Speaker 1:

Amen, and before we do the opening prayer, i had another point I wanted to build off of what you just said. It got me thinking about, you know, the, the, the perfection of God and how he sees every outcome, and that whole idea of knowing the date. It almost makes me think of my time as a teacher. But if anyone has been a student at any point in their life which would probably be most people they can probably relate to this. The idea of knowing the due date of an assignment and then just pissing around until it's due, like the night before, and Even even accomplishing it with with moderate success. You're not really learning anything. There's nothing you know if you're not doing that study and and you know, and Just constantly in it. You know abiding and and I'm not, i don't mean, i mean in a literal, sorry, a tangible sense, like you're not necessarily only reading the Bible, but you have that true relationship with the Christ. You know how experienced will you be when it's time to. You know a quote-unquote transition over into the spirit realm, you know, into the, the real world, so to speak.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Definitely, that's a good point. It's a good, good analogy, all right so Opening prayer.

Speaker 1:

Would you be keen to do that for us?

Speaker 2:

Sure Father, thank you for gathering your people together. Where we're two or more gathered, they are among us, and We should pray that all things would be submitted to you, to our speech, or The course of the conversation would be submitted to you, to your spirit, regardless, to glorify you, that you would reveal things to us, and this would be edifying, to any brethren at least. And then we give you thanks for your son, jesus Christ. Amen, amen.

Speaker 1:

So You know I had set aside time to maybe do some research. I had do Rev 1 through 3, revelation 1 through 3, but I think if we're being intellectually honest, it's going to be one if that, considering you know, some of these other things I wanted to bring into the conversation. And Michael, who is, thank God, you know wealth of knowledge In so many ways and he'll always be humble about it. So if he's self deprecating in a minute, don't, don't buy that for an instant. He knows a lot of stuff, you know, he's really into it. I I'm so glad to have him here and God allowing, by the grace of the spirit, will be led into further knowledge and into, you know, a revelation of Some of the, the beauty hidden in this book. But before we get into, i suppose, eschatology, in the book of revelation, i did want to bring up some of these prophecies and in, michael brought up a really interesting one at an eschatology study. I don't even know if it was an eschatology study, might have just been. Maybe we're discussing the Feasts of Israel, where you had discussed the. So the measurements of the temple were a foreshadowing of the Age of the church, right? Do you recall that offhand, could you, could you share that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's so many layers to the pro, to symbolic prophecies of how the tabernacle and in a temporal design, i think this is specifically the tabernacle, because I don't the temple was bigger than the tabernacle. I think there were some things that changed. But so the tabernacle, there was the three aspects of it and obviously Three's, a number of God, and there's so many threes that these three, that these things line up with. But, yeah, the outer court, which had a lot of bronze and brass, which is Symbolic of judgment, and the outer court corresponds to Coming to Christ initially, like coming out the world, and it corresponds to the age of the law as well. There's the bronze laver For washing, which you had to be washed before you go into the actual tent itself, which is, you know, a type of baptism. So you have to be baptized to go into the hidden compartments, and the hidden compartments were the, the holy place and the holy of Holies. So and I'm gonna do a horrible job explaining this, i know, but It basically each compartment corresponds to a different age. So, like, everything in the outer court corresponded to the age of law. Then you're baptized and in and in the holy place correspond to the age of the church. You had the showbread, like the body of Christ, the incense, the prayers. You had the candlestick, obviously, or lamp stand, which obviously is a big type of the church, and also there was some humanity involved in the light, because the candle still had to be trimmed. So there was some, you know, human effort, if you will, to the light shining, but all these things kind of speak of the church age. And then the final compartment, ark of the Covenant, shikha and the Glory of God, no need for any man to do anything because the light is just there from the divine source. And so basically there's all these three. So, like you know, the Alta-Kor is Jesus, he's the visible one, so he's the Word made flesh, and that's visible. And then the Holy place is the Holy Spirit. The Holy of Holies is the Father. The Alta-Kor is symbolic of the body, because it's the visible part. Again, christ is the body of God. And then the, obviously the Holy Spirit is the Spirit. And then the final compartment is the soul, because not many people talk about this, but the Father is actually the soul of God. You know, jesus is the body of God, the Spirit is the Spirit of God, the Father is the soul of God. But there's all these threes, but with the ages, the measurements in cubits of each compartment. The Alta-Kor measured 1500 cubits, which is how long the age of law was, and then the final compartment, where the Father, where the Shikha and the Glory is, is a thousand cubits, which is typified foreshadowing the millennium, which we know is a thousand years. So we already have the years of each of those too. We know the law. The age of law was 1500 years. I don't know if it was to the day or not, but it was like you know. We already know that the age of law basically corresponded to that amount. I don't think we have like the dates to the day or anything, when we know the millennium is a thousand years. Well, the middle compartment was 2000 cubits, the one that's symbolic of the church. So and the church age. So you know, obviously this is a very highly symbolic prophecy, but when we already have the years for the law and for the millennium, some leader, the 2000 cubits seem very pointed as far as the church age being 2000 years. There's another one that's very similar, like when Ark of the Covenant crossed the Jordan, the people were told to cross 2000,. Have a space of 2000 cubits before they crossed. So, and this is a real side note but this is another reason why it's really good to have literal translations of the Bible, because, even though the dynamic equivalents, i understand that the thought behind it of like we wanna like, convey the meaning more than the actual, a real stilted literal translation, you might unwittingly remove something that's prophetic or has a significance, so like I think some translations translate away to cubits into like a modern measurement Cause like, oh well, let's, you know, people don't use cubits anymore. Let's translate it into something that's modern And then you lose this amazing prophecy. I think that's why it's really important to have literal translations, even for reasons like that. But yeah, so again, i was just discussing this with a brother in the last few days by email and I'm like it's nothing you can be dogmatic about, in a sense of, like it says right here, 2000 years, because it is a very symbolic prophecy. But when you, when you study the tabernacle and all the layers of it, and how much symbolism there is in those three compartments, to me it's very compelling. And the cubits, how they correspond to those different ages, you know, because the millennial age is the fullness of God and the glory of its presence, and that final compartment, the Holy of Holies, clearly corresponds to that. So the middle compartment of the church age, the holy place with the candlestick and the showbread and the altar of incense and all that it's, to me it's just very compelling for sure.

Speaker 1:

Sure, well, when you say you know it's difficult to be maybe I misheard you here dogmatic about the 2000 year period. After watching this video that I brought up at the very beginning, the Messiah 2030 video, i was just blown away by how many references there are, both sort of sub, not subliminal, but kind of tucked away, hidden And right on the head there are. You should give this video a watch And I think at some point, if you did watch it, i think at some point it would be fun to get together again and discuss a few of these, just because of how interesting they are, and for me it's just a means of kind of committing it to my memory. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

Like it's yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, i'll definitely want to watch. Yeah, i find that really interesting, and I guess by dogmatic I mean something's in scripture where if you were having a debate with someone and they're like no sexual immorality is fine, and you're like it says right here, you know, whereas with this it's still kind of like it feels like you kind of slap that revelation of like, okay, this definitely means this, so like I personally fully believe it, but you couldn't present it in a sense of like it says right here, like church age will be 2000 years, you know. Well, i'm looking forward to watching that video because I love this subject matter.

Speaker 1:

Sure, yeah, i've got a couple of things that I've gleaned from the video, and I think what I was discussing with Michael beforehand was that and I've learned this from a decade of being in education Sometimes you have to teach new things, and that's especially true of a podcast that I mean. This podcast was created for selfish reasons, so I could learn, and the second reason was to, you know, to edify, right, but I just wanted to learn so I could teach it further. And there's this concept of, there's this thing called Bloom's taxonomy that kind of lays out the different tiers of learning, right, and the lowest tier would be, just, you know, instant recall. Like you know, you've got a student who's kind of screwing around in class and you know, you ask them to recall what you just said and they should be able to do it in theory, right, they should. A lot of, you know, misbehaved kids can do that, where you say, hey, so-and-so, what was I just talking about, and they just regurgitate whatever you were just talking about. But it's a very low form of learning because they're not gonna. Really there's no real chance of them taking that and using it a meaningful way, right, but at the very top of this methodology or this sorry, these series of tiers called Bloom's taxonomy, is more or less teaching to learn, right, and you see this concept exercised in graduate level disciplines. Right, when you're writing a dissertation, you're writing a thesis paper. The people writing the paper, they're trying to learn it themselves by teaching it, by putting it together in an organized way and sharing it with the masses. Right, and that's what a lot of this podcast has been for me, in terms of at least the theological stuff. You know what I mean. It's been a great way of gleaning information, reorganizing it and sharing it and learning myself and, god-allowing, edifying people. So, yeah, all of that being said, i tried to get a lot of this information from this video and reorganize it within the past couple of days And as I looked at my notes, oh my gosh, i need to listen to that again, i need to watch it again, because that would be so fun to share on the podcast And, of course, give them full credit for the legwork. Now, i know none of it is really novel. I don't think that the people who made the video found these prophecies themselves. They've probably gleaned from it yeah, gleaned it from elsewhere. But, that being said, i mean the fact that they were able to consolidate all of it into one very convenient video, i think is a real blessing. It's a really yeah, it's a fun little thing to watch. So I've got a couple of things here. I'm sorry, Michael, go on.

Speaker 2:

No, i was just gonna say that's a great point about teaching to learn. I just yeah that really resonated because sometimes we can think we're doing things purely for others if it's like something they were teaching in. But you learn so much more when you're putting the effort into seeking something out And often it's more for your own benefit than you realize. That sounds selfish in a way, but obviously it's for everyone's benefit, but you always gain a benefit yourself by learning it and kind of absorbing it. I feel like the most true messengers embody the message. Christ was the absolute embodiment of everything he said. So there's no hypocrisy in him. There was no lip service to anything, anything he said. He was the perfect embodiment of. If he talked about love, he was the perfect embodiment of love. If he talked about judgment, he was the perfect judge. If he talked about anything he was preaching, he was the absolute, 100%, limitless, perfect embodiment of. He became well, he didn't become the message, but he was the message Like. Ultimately, the person of Christ was the message and his words were like a confirmation of that And to me that's how we need to become. We become our message. Paul said you are living epistles, known and read of all men. I think that's one of the most amazing descriptions of the body of Christ, because people are not supposed to just hear our words and be like that is intellectually true. We're supposed to be embodiments of that message, to where there's something within our character that everything we say is like an outflowing of something that we are. And I think that's part of the process of refinement and being refined to the image of Christ as we increasingly become the message We're living. Epistles Like you can read someone's life, you can read their character, you can read the way they're behaving, and their words will be a confirmation of that. And again, as disciples of the master, i think that's the way we need to be And I think so how you describe it, i think is really interesting too. Because when we first know something, intellectually, i don't think it's absorbed into us yet to where we kind of embody it and can say it sincerely and spontaneously or how do you want to say it. But I think like it's almost like things get digested into us, like you learn something and you learn it to this point where it kind of digests. This might sound a bit cheesy, but you digest it and it almost becomes a part of you to where it comes. Naturally. It's been revealed to you so deeply that it's kind of part of you in a sense. And I think that's something I've seen a lot too. Like if I read something I find really interesting, but then I immediately just tried to flip it around and tell it to someone else And it hadn't really been digested into me yet, it's just not gonna have that authority behind it yet. And obviously there's just interesting facts you can regurgitate. But if it's something that's profound, like a revelation someone had they shared and you're just like, oh, that's interesting, i'm just gonna parrot it, i don't think it would have the authority behind it. And if you digested it and it's really become something that's revealed to you really fundamentally, or whatever.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, great point. And that's precisely it. It has to become a part of you. You have to swim in it for a little while, because there's also the odds or the odd chance that someone's gonna wanna go down at a different avenue or take you on a tangent, and then, if you can't go on that tangent with them, they might lose their footing in the argument or they might lose their interest in it because they're like, well, he might be right, but he doesn't really have this put together well enough yet. Or they might just be like this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. So, yeah, definitely, just immersing yourself in it is, and I love it. There's no subject I love more than this subject. So it's a labor of love. Okay, so a couple of interesting points and then, god allowing, just get to chapter one of Revelation. So the first thing that should be mentioned is obviously one day to the Lord is a thousand years to us, right, and that principle is really important in the scripture And that's reinforced in second Peter, chapter three, verse six. Let me just open this up really quickly. And what Peter is doing is he's addressing scoffers who are saying, hey, where is the Lord, where is his coming, right, and he's basically putting this out there. So if I open up three, six, it's let's see, or sorry, it starts at three, four. So where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers well, i'll go back a little further Three, three. So, second, peter, three, three. Knowing this first, that scoffers will come in the last days, walking around according to their lusts, that feels very, very important, doesn't it? And saying where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation. Right, for this. They willingly forget that, by the word of God, the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded by the water. But the heavens and the earth, which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and in perdition of ungodly men. Right? So, essentially, peter here is drawing a parallel to the creation and the coming of the Lord, and this is one of the points that the gentleman makes in this video. I think it's really, really fascinating that you can see a direct parallel between the seven-day creation event. So stop me if this is convoluted, because I'm forming it in my own mind right now The seven-day creation event and the ages of the earth in terms of 6,000 years going on to 7,000 years. And it seems to me that this was really prominent among the early church fathers as well, including the apostles. They just had this understanding that there would be a 6,000-year period. So I've got here. You're familiar with Irenaeus, or Irenaeus.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, i'm not sure as far as I can quote him, but I have read him, okay, okay.

Speaker 1:

So Irenaeus was somewhat popular, even in sort of lay groups, but Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp, who was said to have been tutored by John the Apostle himself. Right, and Irenaeus confirmed the belief of the apostles Andrew Lee, church, christian, sorry. He confirms the belief that was held by the apostles and early Christians that there would be a 6,000-year period before the reign of Christ, right? So I've got a quote here by Irenaeus, for in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. This is an account of the things formally created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come, for the day of the Lord is as a thousand years and in six days created things were completed. It is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the six thousandth year. So Irenaeus is direct lineage from you know, essentially in terms of tutelage. John the Apostle, right, and he basically says in plain English hey, it's gonna be six thousand years, okay. We also have let's see and I'm going through my notes here really quickly We have the Epistle of Barnabas, which is an apocryphal epistle but is held in some esteem by the early church fathers. So the epistle was viewed as authoritative scripture by some Christians in the early centuries of the church. This is, you know, right around the same time as Irenaeus, so they might have even been contemporaneous, right, it was attributed to Barnabas, the companion of Paul, the Apostle by Clemente of Alexandria and Origen. And this is one of the quotes from the Epistle of Barnabas. So here it is. He speaks of the Sabbath at the beginning of creation. Quote And God made in six days the works of his hands, and on the seventh day he made an end, and he rested on the seventh day and he sanctified it. Consider, my children, what this signifies that he made an end in six days. The meaning of it is this that in six thousand years the Creator will bring an end, will bring all things to an end, for with him one day is a thousand years. He himself testifies, saying behold, the day of the Lord shall be a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things shall be accomplished. He, and he rested on the seventh day. He means this that when the sun shall come, he will destroy the season of the wicked one and will judge the godless, excuse me and will change the sun and the moon and the stars, and he will truly rest on the seventh day. Okay, so I've got a few other quotes here. I could keep on going, but the parallel that is created here between this seventh day creation event and the six days, sorry, and the six thousand years of church history or rather seven thousand, because the last thousand is to come is pretty uncanny. Right, i've got a few other quotes. Like Methodius and it was another early church follower. I'm not going to read that. But we also see in Isaiah 46-10, it says the end was declared from the beginning and I always thought that was kind of a, maybe a colorful I don't know if you would call that an aphorism, but a colorful, you know description of, you know a vague prophecy, i didn't know. That was a literal thing, and the fact that it says it right there kind of solidifies those two other quotes for me. What I gleaned from that is the apostles believed it and that it was believed in the time of the Old Testament as well, that the eras of the earth are laid out right there, you know, in Genesis, right? So here are some parallels and again, forgive me if this is scatterbrained, because I wrote this down a dare to ago and I thought this would be so much fun to share And I really had to go through these notes and determine what I could actually express in words clearly, because it's so new in terms of information. Day one essentially, we have the creation of the earth, right. So on the first day of creation, light and darkness were separated and in the first thousand years light and darkness were separated. Okay, i'm trying to make sense of that in my head because I'm not sure what I meant by that note. So let me go on a day two. So, day two, we have the creation of the water, a note. In the second millennia, which would be the second thousand years According to the scripture, we found water covering the earth and the flood of Noah. On day three of creation, the land yielded seed-bearing fruit and likewise in the third millennium, abraham's seed was promised to receive land. Note also that Israel was given the seed, or rather word of God and planted in the promised land of Israel right. Day four, we have the creation of the sun as the greater light and it was in the fourth millennium that Christ was our light, or Christ our light was revealed right. So this is also fulfilled. Malachi, chapter four, verse two, where the Messiah came as the quote son of righteousness, s-u-n. Right And that's foreshadowing the Messiah right And it kind of parallels that prophecy. Day five fish and birds were created and instructed to multiply over the whole earth and in the fifth millennium Christians are asked to be fishers of men and the dove, which is the symbol of the Holy Spirit, worked in all believers right. Day six we have the creation of man, who was instructed to multiply and fill the whole earth. Now this one, i feel, is a bit I'm not. I mean I'm not completely with this one, but I understand it. So he says in the sixth millennium. So man is instructed to multiply and fill the earth, right. Sixth millennium is when, essentially, the population of the earth is skyrocketed, like we. If you look at any charts of the earth population, especially in the 20th century, it's just gone through the roof. And in the seventh day of the creation week is the Sabbath day where we are waiting for the millennium reign of Christ or millennial reign of Christ to be filled right. So that was really scatterbrained and to me I like if I were listening to that, i would have been unconvinced as well. But I'm beginning to see the parallel and I think it was really interesting and I think I'm gonna play with that a lot more.

Speaker 2:

I'd see all that. I think the last one's a little weak the way they described it. I think it would have a lot more to do to me with. You know, adam was made in the image of God and, you know, maybe at the end of the sixth year, that's where the church was brought to the fullness and the stature of Christ, which is the image of God. You know, i think it's probably a lot more focused on the dealings with God's, people being brought into his image than just the population explosion of the earth would be my guess. But sure, sure, i mean, i have a way, definitely a lot to think about, because there's probably a lot more to. Yeah, i can imagine there's a lot more dig around in there.

Speaker 1:

But he brings up hundreds of other really interesting points, like one that comes to mind is that in the scripture God says to Adam the day that you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die right. And Adam doesn't die. He doesn't die that day, right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, none of them make it to a thousand years. They all die at nine something right.

Speaker 1:

But it's within a thousand years, right? so the day that's being referred to is a thousand year period. So there are other things that he says as well. So, for example, christ is going to sit on the throne of David and he's referred to as the second Adam. Adam lived 930 years and David lived 70 years. You have a 1,000 year period when you combine their two ages. Gosh, and you know a lot of these. I'm looking at them and I'm like I have my one sentence note on that thing and I'm like it's just not going to sell it the way you know yeah, i got you, so there's a lot of really good ones in here. Sorry, go on yeah.

Speaker 2:

No, no, i really want to dig into it. This is great stuff. Yeah, i think, yeah, i think all of that with a. I'd noticed that before how not just Adam, but everybody died within the thousand years. You know, i think part of the thing about the millennium is it's a thousand years and it's also symbolic of God's people are going to live through that whole period and, you know, basically live the perfect day, to live a full day, you know, even in addition to what they've already lived. You know, and I think it's, yeah, wonderful symbolism.

Speaker 1:

So I'll just leave you with one more of the small ones and again, i know I'm not selling this because I'm just demolishing everything good that was that you know was put together in that video, but the other one was the Lazarus prophecy. So when Christ found out the Lazarus was ill, he stayed away for two days before bringing him back to life, and so this is a foreshadowing of of our resurrection in the last day, because essentially Christ is not away, he's with us in spirit, but perhaps you could say bodily away for 2000 years. And this is reinforced by Martha bringing up the general resurrection when Christ does arrive. This symbolism, in my opinion, and we also note that Christ has Lazarus unbound when he's resurrected, right, and that's almost symbolic of being unshackled from death, and you know so And that's the Hosea as well, where he says after two days he will revive us.

Speaker 2:

on the third day he will restore us that we may live in his presence. Yeah, yeah, i think I think that's another one that's cited for the for the 2000 years as well, that's brilliant. I have my own, you know, and again I'm not that dogmatic about this, because this really is not explicit, but I, like, i have my own theory. I guess I want to say because again I would be dogmatic about it that Peter James and John are symbolic of overcomers within the church, because you know, in Revelation that we're going to get into, you know, talks about the overcomers, the promises are to the overcomers within the church, and I think whenever Peter James and John were separated out, i think it was something prophetic that was happening, and with the transfiguration it was after six days, god took them up a mountain, and one of them actually says after eight days. So there is some disagreement, but I think it's Luke that says after six days, christ takes Peter James and John up a mountain and they have a revelation of who he is, and that's a real hidden one. But I feel like that's also after six thousand years, like a certain group of God's people are going to kind of be elevated in spirit and see him as he is. You know, because that's what happened basically, i think I feel like it was a foreshadowing of the end of the age, as I think that's the case with all of anytime. Peter James and John are separated out and just did something on their own. I feel like it's a foreshadowing of the end of the age and I think they're symbolic of, like the overcomers. Another one then. This is a bit of a tangent, but you know, he goes to heal the 12 year old girl that's died and when he's on his way, the woman who's had a flow of blood for 12 years like touches his, the edge of his robe and she's healed from her flow. So I think that's also the end of the age and I think what's interesting is the woman's had the flow of blood for exactly how long the dead girl had been alive. The girl died at 12 years old. The woman had had a flow of blood for 12 years. I'm like that's way too big of a coincidence. My theory on that is that the girl, the dead girl, is the church and the woman is the Jews. The Jews and the reason I say that is okay the Jews. Ever since the church was born, the Jews have basically been persecuted and had a flow of blood, if you will, to where they? they're always being persecuted and they're always being, and the church at the end of the age. I think the fact that it's a girl speaks of like immaturity and an appearance of being dead. You know, it's like a church. That church hasn't come to maturity yet and the church is in fact appears to be dead. So I feel like to me and again, i'm not dogmatic about this, there's no way of proving it, but it seems very coincidental that you have 12 years and two different aspects of the same thing so to me it's like Christ is on his way to wake up the church. And then the Jewish. He's almost passed by the Jews, and then they, in a sense, come from behind and take hold of him, so to speak, and are healed. You know, and I could be completely off of that, obviously- no, that's fascinating, that's really fascinating, yeah yeah so but yeah, but as it applies to the transfiguration, i do personally feel like the transfiguration is is a prophecy of this, the foreshadowing the end of the age as well, because I do think at the end of the age a group of God's people are going to kind of see him as he is and have a massive revelation of him before he comes, you know, and kind of see him as he is, so to speak. And again, you know, you have two different accounts of when it happened. But I think Luke says, after six days, but very, very fringe there and again, nothing that I, nothing that I would thumb the Bible over, but hey, it's a theory yeah, that's, that's an amazing theory, a really amazing theory.

Speaker 1:

I mean, they are often referred to as sort of the inner circle, right, peter, james and John, and they get. They get to see all the cool stuff, or at least at that point. So yeah, i mean I had never put that much thought into it, but I mean, maybe it's a testimony to my maturity as a believer. I just hadn't, i, you know, hadn't considered that. But yeah, really fascinating point. Fascinating. All right, okay, before we do revelation one, do you want to? should we read revelation one? what do you think of that?

Speaker 2:

yeah, okay, i'm doing the reading chunks or read the whole thing or what.

Speaker 1:

Maybe we'll go through in chunks and then just discuss a little bit, or what do you think? okay, i've got the CSB here. Are you okay with that translation? yeah, okay, okay. So the most important point and I think you you agreed with, with, was it miscellaneous? this as well, apocalyptic translates to the revelation and it's not plural revelations.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you hear people say revelations a lot and it's yeah, it's the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1:

So yes, yes, it translates to unveil right, the, to unveil like, and and to his point. A lot of people think well, it's a series of, you know, mystical happenings. So there's, you know, lots of things being revealed and it's like no, this is the unveiling of of the Christ yeah, i mean another.

Speaker 2:

You could say uncovering as well. I've heard someone, because the colipto is to cover and there's a compound word, so apo is like away from, so like basically away. You know, taken away a cover, taken away a covering, which obviously a veil is a form of covering, but it's a compound word, so colipto is is cover, apo, apocalypto. So I've heard someone say you know, when you have the big fancy meal and there's the big, uh, big silver kind of like dome over a meal, and it's. The people describe that as that and I think, either way, i mean unveiling, uncovering. The idea is not just something being revealed, but something being revealed where it already was, and I think that's really important. So, you know, when you, when you take that silver thing off the plate, the food was already there. You're revealing something that was already there, but now it's revealed. And I think that's really important with with Christ, because I think Christ there's many ways in which he's revealed, you know um, but he's being. I think a lot about this book of revelation is him being revealed in and through his people, which he is already in us, you know. So I think it's um. I think the intent of the word is very informative as to exactly what what's happening, and also very ironic as well. You know, i even do this. I say apocalyptic about, like our nuclear war, apocalyptic scenario, and the way apocalyptic has been used now in the vernacular is so erroneous as to what it actually means. It's kind of hilarious, you know. It's uh, because, yeah, a nuclear bomb has got nothing to do with an unveiling or an uncovering, but because people have tied revelation so much to world events rather than the unveiling of Christ, it's become shorthand for nuclear devastation post apocalyptic. Post apocalyptic is going to be wonderful because post apocalyptic stuff the crust has been revealed. It's just kind of an irony from you know, from you know. Pop culture, oh yeah yeah, that is.

Speaker 1:

It is uh synonymous with, with horrible things, the t800s coming out and shooting people and yeah, um, okay, the revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave to him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to the servant john, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ whatever he saw. Blessed it is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy. Thank you, god, and blessed are those who hear the words of this prophecy and keep what is written in it, because the time is near. John, to the seven churches in Asia, grace and peace to you from the one who is, who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead and the ruler of the kings of the earth. And I'll just go on a little bit further after line 7. So the whole coming with the clouds thing I know that's been a conversation that I've heard several different ways and a lot of people interpret that as what you typically see in Renaissance painting, where Jesus is up in the air with clouds, and I wouldn't be diminutive about that. That could very well be the case, but I know another interpretation of that is that clouds are. Is there a synonym for the believers? Is that something you've discovered through concordance?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, i mean, that's something I really believe is that you know, in the Old Testament there was a cloud because there was only God. You know, there was no offspring of God spiritually. So there was the cloud in the wilderness. Elijah sees one cloud rising up over the horizon, and then there was a lot of talk about a cloud. In the New Testament we have a cloud of witnesses and it talks about, i think, false believers as, like clouds without rain, there's clear symbolism between believers and clouds. So I think when Christ is coming with clouds, i think it's dangerous to just assume it's a physical cloud. I personally think that it's really talking about clouds of glory. I think we're all going to be, in a sense, clouds of glory. So I think when he's coming with clouds, i think it's another way of saying he's coming with his saints. Obviously, he could come with earthly clouds as well, and it's not for it's way above my purview to know for sure that exact nature of how it's going to visibly unfold. But I also think that there's a real strong symbolism for believers being clouds of glory.

Speaker 1:

You know, sure sure What else comes to mind here. I think that, oh yeah, go on. Oh sorry, you first. Well, we're about to dive into the seven churches of Asia and I think the next time we get together and I think that's a really fascinating one that we'll probably touch on more when we get there But a lot of people ask about why those particular churches and not some of the more obvious ones, like Church of Jerusalem, Antioch, What would have been some big churches back then at the time that were really well known, that everyone knew about?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Rome.

Speaker 1:

So I mean, you have these other churches that we're going to eventually discuss got allowing and people are typically curious about why those churches. It almost feels myopic, considering some of the major congregations out there, and I've heard some really interesting theories. I've heard several expositors make a good case for the fact that these are. These letters are obviously intended for the reader, so it says, he that has an ear, let him hear, right, so it's got a homo-letic sort of quality to it. It's a message to everyone who would read, right, because it's all relevant. But it's also these churches, while they were real churches they were, they were tangibly real. They also were, from the standpoint of some of these expositors, foreshadowing of the ages of the churches, to come right From the beginning, which would have been Ephesus, to the last, which would have been Laodicea, right, and I've seen some pretty amazing parallels drawn there from the church to the age that they're proposing it represented And I think that it also it represents, you know, you see, qualities and these and the bad things found in these churches, also in churches today. So it's relevant for today. It's got a homo-letic quality. It's also got a prophetic quality, right And as God allowing, we will get into. Yeah, we see more of, in my opinion, the church of Laodicea, which is the last church we'll talk about in the seven churches. We see more of that in many modern progressive churches today than, i would say, any other church in terms of mainstream churches, so I think it's a really fascinating one. I'm looking forward to digging into that one further with you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely, that's going to be really, really fruitful From my part. Revelation 1-1, a big thing for me is where it says he made known, sending from through his angel. That word that's. I can't remember how it was pronounced. Look, i can't remember how it was translated in your one I'm looking at. The word is essay man, and that actually means that every word has a range of semantic meaning, but the primary meaning is to give a sign, to signify. Now, made known is given as a translation and I think probably just because that to me that's really a secondary, it's really a secondary meaning. I believe I could be wrong. I'm actually going to try and look it up, but as an example, i think that that word in modern Greek might even mean flag, which would be quite interesting.

Speaker 1:

The CSB has let me down. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2:

My point is it's I think it's really important that from the outset people realize that the Revelation is a book of symbols. You know it is a symbolic book and there is literal aspects of as far as these were real charities. You know in two and three. But I think that so much of what is happening is in sign form. You know it's a sign that means something else. Even like John's saying I saw a sign in heaven. This is not, we're not looking for a real woman clothed with the sun, obviously, but there's ones that are less obvious. But how I usually explain this is New Jerusalem because, for whatever reason, people always think New Jerusalem is a literal city that's going to come down from outer space or come down from heaven, whatever, even though it's introduced as the bride, the wife of the lamb. So clearly it's not a city, clearly it's the people of God. You know, even introduces the symbol I'm going to show you the bride, the wife of the lamb. In Behold, i saw a city coming down out of heaven. Well, obviously it's not a real city in the sense of brick and mortar, it's the people of God. So to me, it's the New Jerusalem state as a state of being that is described when it's describing the New Jerusalem. That corresponds to the people of God. So, and I think it's important that people understand this from the outset, and it's right there in Revelation 1.1. And I think the other thing is that I personally really strongly believe Revelation was written for all believers in all eras. You know, i mean obviously you have the letters to the seven churches to begin with, but it says you know, there's a blessing for whoever reads it And I think there is a tendency nowadays to think that it's really only relevant for people in our time, at the end of the age, you know, because it's got helicopters and nuclear bombs in Russia and China and all this stuff, and I don't think it does. I honestly think it has to be something. It doesn't mean everything was being fulfilled then, as far as obviously the millennium wasn't being fulfilled in the first century, but I think it must be symbols that could be understood by the early church. If it's a symbol for a nuclear war, then there's no benefit a first century Christian could get from reading it. So I think it must be primarily a spiritual book. I think if it's for, if it is for all believers in all times, and I think the symbols have to be such that could be understood by any believer in any time. So my own personal belief is it's about the rebel. It's a spiritual book about the revelation of Jesus Christ within the people of God in a way that can be understood by everyone, even if the actual exterior events might not be you know, millennium is not fulfilled in the first century, but you can still understand things about the millennium from the perspective of the first century. So that's how I always read it, because I'm like it would be almost a sick joke to be like, hey, there's a blessing for everyone, but the only people that can understand any of these are in the 21st and 20th centuries, when they had nuclear bombs in China and Russia and all this. To me that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why have people read something that is absolutely impossible that they would understand? So again, that's my own belief. I really think it's primarily about Jesus Christ more than about even world events.

Speaker 1:

I agree with you. Yeah, yeah, i agree. I just wanted to say really quickly, i don't try to read those parallels into it that you brought up, and I know there are tons of people online that are doing just that. They're like, oh, this is clearly a nuclear bomb. I, oh, this sounds like a helicopter with it And that could very well be the case, and in some instances you could draw those parallels because they're clearly trying to adopt the Daniel interpretation methodology where you know like, oh, this is Alexander the Great And this is somebody else, right. But I do think there's this expositors And we've discussed him before. His name is N T, right, and he brought up this, this concept in scripture called it's a. There's a Latin term for it, it's a census plenair, and what that is is that there is more meaning in there than the author originally intended And what you and I would probably know that, as is the, the grace of the spirit right, the, the true author of the scripture. So could it be that there is just as much depth for a first century reader as there would be for any you've already said this but as there would be for a 21st century reader in terms of historical parallels. Was that a bit scatterbrained? Do you see what I'm saying there? Like, for example, the? the first century reader will gain tremendous insight from it. So the 21st century reader might see some new things that the first century reader might not have pulled from it as well.

Speaker 2:

I guess it's possible. I guess it's possible Because I mean obviously it's possible. But I think the other thing is as well. You know, in Revelation 111 as well, it says what is going to happen soon.

Speaker 1:

Again, let me just see what's the word. Tacky us.

Speaker 2:

We've talked about that for you Look at how that's translated elsewhere, it is very consistent with you know so in Luke 18, he will get justice from speedily in acts, when, when Peter was being freed, it's like get up quickly, yeah, and he got up quickly, you know. get out of Jerusalem quickly, he got out of Jerusalem quickly. Yes, about you know so. It's clear in all the other ways that this is used. It is used as soon, quickly, you know So. You know there it does present this, it does present these things as happening soon, even in the experience of those people. So, yeah, and I think the lens at which we look Revelation through is really important. I think one of the reasons there's so much disagreement in Revelation is, i think, for starters, we all approach it differently, and then even how you approach it, nobody knows all of it. Like my attitude, from my own understanding in Revelation is very similar to what we said earlier on about digesting.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I feel like there's there's areas of it I feel very strongly about because I feel like I've had a revelation on it, and then there's areas where I've read things that sound very convincing and would align with how I view the book as a whole, but I am digested them So I'm not going to regurgitate. Sure Yeah, so it's sort of like New Jerusalem. I feel like I've had a profound revelation on that being the state of God's people, you know, even like the streets of gold is us walking in a divine nature, you know, and things like that. But then there's other aspects that I, you know, I've read, read about Revelation as things. I'm like that sounds really convincing, but it's not to where. I feel like it's resonated as a revelation in me And that has been a campaign that is aboutrog BMW.

Return of the Messiah
Symbolic Prophecies in the Tabernacle
Teaching Scripture and Time Understanding
Creation and Church History Parallels
Revelation Symbolism and Christ Unveiled
Interpreting the Symbolism of Revelation
Interpretations of Revelation