Atlas Apologia
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Atlas Apologia
Ep. 173: Demonic Foes Book Club: In-depth Analysis and Personal Experiences
Ever dared to venture into the realm of the supernatural, the world of demonic possession and spiritual warfare? Brace yourselves as we, along with friends from the West Coast of Canada, England, and the US, plunge into chapters seven and eight of Dr Richard Gallagher's Demonic Foes. Together, we share our personal experiences, dissect the narratives in the book, and offer thought-provoking insights into a topic often cloaked in mystery and fear.
Journey with us as we marvel at the extraordinary love and determination of a couple battling demonic possession, exploring their remarkable resilience and the wife's astounding capacity to function amidst multiple exorcisms. We delve into the intriguing concept of speaking in tongues and the distinct personalities of fallen angels, providing you a unique perspective into the complex world of demonology. Furthermore, we discuss the supernatural abilities of certain psychics, the methodical approach of the Catholic Church towards exorcisms, and the potential pitfalls of spiritual promotions within charismatic churches.
As we dive into the final chapters, we consider the notion of free will in the context of demonic activity, pondering the possible rise in possession cases in recent times. We discuss the writings of a Russian saint on demonic activity and the role it plays in fostering addictions. We also reflect on the decline in church attendance and its possible influence on the surge in demonic activity. Ending on a chilling note, we share our own unsettling experiences, emphasizing the power of prayer and the significance of free will when faced with such dark forces. Whether you're a believer or skeptic, your curiosity is bound to be piqued by our exploration of this mesmerizing subject.
Welcome to the IDC podcast. This is Aleko, and I hope you're doing well. So we've got book club today and we're going to be talking about chapters seven and eight of demonic foes by Dr Richard Gallagher. This was a very interesting chapter indeed, so if you're reading the book, I recommend you listen to our discussion. One minor caveat is that the recording was a little bit tinny today because the audio equipment was on the fritz, but unfortunately my end came through all right, but everyone else was a little bit odd, so it sounds a little bit more like a phone call on their end, but we still had fun nonetheless and we really enjoyed ourselves and got a lot of help to be able to get more content out there.
Speaker 2:It has been a very busy few weeks since I've come back from my trip to see family in Greece, and another thing is, you know, I've been in prayer regarding what would be appropriate to talk about in these very trying times. Obviously, I don't want to cover topics that might seem trite or superficial when it seems, now more than ever, the world needs prayer. So I love you all and I hope you're doing well, and I hope that we can all pray for those who are suffering right now. God bless you and, him willing, I'll be able to get something edifying up on the podcast soon enough. Welcome to the IDC podcast book club where we are discussing demonic foes by Dr Richard Gallagher. This is a leko and I'm joined by my friends, but before they introduce themselves, brian, would you be keen to do an opening prayer?
Speaker 3:Yeah, rather just thank you for bringing us together here for the next few minutes. Be with us in our conversation and our thoughts and maybe be glorified to you for asking Jesus name.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right. So who's with us today?
Speaker 1:What's the?
Speaker 2:temperature currently there. Yeah, we are autumn just finished. Do your leaves change significantly where you are? Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, our hours were yellow and red really beautiful for a month and a half, and the wind just took all of them. They're on the ground now and there's a bit of snow on the roofs. So yeah, interesting, interesting, who. Who else is with us?
Speaker 4:Darren and I am on the west coast of Canada where the weather is very fresh. We've got a north wind coming in and yeah, it's been good since the last call, busy with preschool and work and all of those wonderful things.
Speaker 2:Do you feel like you're making advances in preschool?
Speaker 4:I just get. I get our three year old daughter there. But actually it's interesting. You know some people. I've heard conversations where people can be quite dismissive about preschool but I found like, particularly socially, it's been a huge game changer for our daughter. So, yeah, she's, she's enjoying the benefits of preschool. Unfortunately, I don't get to stay, I just get to meet her there and drop her off, still not coloring.
Speaker 2:It does sound like a lot of fun, but you still can't color in the lines, right? So you need that little extra time. Every time you go there I just pretend like I can't color at all. That's cool. Yeah, that's, that's great. Yeah, she looks beautiful. I'm assuming that is that's really good socially, you know, for kiddos to be in there. You know, okay, sweet, who else is with us?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's Brian again in the northeast of England and since the last boot club, since we last joined, I've been very busy watching in the rugby World Cup. It's appropriate that we have it today because we have the final this evening between New Zealand and South Africa.
Speaker 2:Nice, nice. Good match to see how many hours until that takes place? I would be keen to watch that back. Maybe the timing will be off.
Speaker 3:No, it's about four hours. That's the kids of 8pm, which is four and a half hours.
Speaker 2:Okay, I might find a bar to watch that. I don't know if anyone be showing it.
Speaker 3:That'll be good, there'll be plenty of variety, south Africans and Kiwis in it. So you have to check your side.
Speaker 2:Either black or green and gold. I remember rooting for South Africa years ago when we watched the, I guess, the championships in Dalian and Northern China. We went, all went to a bar, we had a long, you know, we did, we played pool and everyone just kind of rallied around the TV and it was fun. It was good fun. This is. This is Aleco, and yeah, I'm here in Duluth. We obviously had a little break. I went to Greece to see my brother and my niece and other family members and let's see what else happened. I see, is my audio good? Let me check real quick. It's fine. Well, yeah, oh, okay, so that should be a little more clear. Yeah, so I went to hang on. I mean, technology is always good.
Speaker 4:It really wasn't a lot going on Aleco, only a trip to Greece and England.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that old chestnut grease flying to Greece. No, greece was beautiful, athens was was fantastic. If I recall, like one of the things that I pointed out to Melanie was a Hanoi. Vietnam, which is where we all met, was almost a spiritual cousin to Athens. It's kind of congested, the there's even a similar aesthetic with some of the brutalist architecture that you find in the city, the more modern stuff it's. Athens, I think, is a little more functional than Vietnam there's. You know, vietnam is is kind of a beautiful chaos, but and then you juxtapose with that brutalist architecture, you have things that are thousands of years old, and I think you have something similar in Vietnam. I don't know if it's thousands of years old, but you have some old stuff, you know, peppered throughout the city, and so there is a similar aesthetic and it was just really good to be back. It was good to take a break the.
Speaker 2:The job is pretty stressful right now. Supply chain is is all kinds of crazy. Ironically, one of you know I won't disclose too much, but one of the one of the stakeholders that we work with quite often is smack deb in the middle of Israel and they're they hold a crucial piece to piece to the puzzle, so to speak. So it's it's been a real pain lately. You know everything that's going on. It's just tragic. So you know you have, you know, a number of people who rely on this component to keep our doors open. You know over thousands of people. Yet how do you pressure, how do you pressure this stakeholder to produce the component when they're?
Speaker 2:You know there's some tragic things happening in the Middle East right now, so it's a real rock in a hard place type of situation. But yeah, outside of that it's, god is good. So I'm glad to be here talking to you all and, yeah, so what we did chapters, was it six and seven or seven and eight? Of seven, seven, eight, yeah, okay, okay. So seven and eight. I've got my notes and yeah, I really I thought the reading was was pretty good and I'm keen to hear what everyone else thinks. So, Hillary, did you have any favorite part of the reading?
Speaker 1:So my favourite part was that we were discussing this lady's problems that she had and she was being through multiple exorcisms before the author arrived at the house and I thought it was quite amazing that the lady's husband maintained an equanimity and patient about patients, about his wife's condition, despite the terrible circumstances, and I thought that was quite amazing really that he was so sort of.
Speaker 2:So this is the woman that I had. Is this the one with the selective listening?
Speaker 1:Yeah, she had apparently been part of a witch's coven when she was much younger and had become possessed by something, and but in the meantime she got married to this chap and had children and had a normal life, and then suddenly it really just taken over.
Speaker 2:This particular chapter got me thinking about many ex-girlfriends who had selective listening and if there could have been demonic activity involved.
Speaker 3:Well, unless you're fussing, you're up to fussing yourself as a demon.
Speaker 2:Guilty is charged. I guess I'm kidding. That was quite fascinating. And how she could. In the chapter, I believe, it says that they would shift from these sessions where they were trying to exercise the demons, and then all of a sudden she'd be helping put on dinner. Yeah, what I think is interesting is the author tried to create a. This is maybe a bit tangential. You know what? I'm going to save that for later. I had a thought on that, but I'll save it for later. Perhaps I'll ask Brian, did you have a favorite part of the reading? Sorry, we're going to Darren.
Speaker 4:Yeah, mine is very similar to Hilary Brees. I thought it was quite impressive how these this couple have been able to hold together their relationship through all of the stuff going on and it seems like she's got a very supportive husband and I was also very impressed by her and, I guess, her husband's just determination to keep pushing through these exorcism processes because she'd been through I don't know, it sounds like more than a dozen exorcism rituals and it was showing some signs of benefit. But at the same time it was very, very taxing and she would the possessed lady Catherine, she would be in essentially kind of a slump for a day or two before the priests would come and she really struggled through that and was, you know, trying to prepare a meal and be a great host in advance of their coming. And then the exorcisms itself were sounded quite awful, where she would, you know, be straining physically and was in trances and in days and different things like that. And then once the exorcism was completed, it was like she was just exhausted, like she'd been in a you know been on the, been in the octagon for for seven rounds, kind of thing.
Speaker 4:So yeah, it's. It's a very, I think, a very impressive story of love really between this, this couple, and also the determination to keep to get to work through this and and make things better. And it kind of reminded me of situations I know of where people suffer from, you know, a mental illness that they're not able to get a grasp on and find the right medications for, or alcoholism, or drug use or any of those, those kind of very destructive habits or states of mind that would normally, especially in in today's society where, like, the value of marriage is and staying together for life is, you know, not as it's not as socially, there's not as much social pressure around doing that, so it's so easy to just start kind of leave and say, yeah, you're not the right person for me. It's too tough, you know, see later yeah, really good points, really good points.
Speaker 2:That I mean, if anything's gonna test a marriage, it's probably gonna be demon possession. Yeah, I completely agree, brian. Did you have any? Any favorite part of the ring?
Speaker 3:yes, sure, so I like. I think it was perhaps in chapter eight. The fact they mentioned for me was top percent on sure with this, this idea that demons have distinct personalities and characteristics and that he, he claims that you can tell which ones are a bit more intelligent than others. Some are a bit more sassy and cheeky, and you know, he, he suggests that that's because you know, at least one of these one, one type of demon, is a fallen angel. So they were real beings with personalities and I suppose I'd always just lumped angels, whether they be angels or fallen angels, in the one one, one set. I never really thought that they also possess personalities, characteristics, intelligence levels. So that was quite a new and interesting thought for sure, yeah, yeah, a really interesting point.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I would have nothing to add to that, but yeah, that was kind of fascinating. I think that this has been a recurring theme throughout the book is something I thought was was interesting because I I always wondered why a? Um, the rights of exorcism would be recited in a different language, be it you know, latin or Greek or whatever it is, depending on, you know, if it's orthodoxy or Catholicism, and I always thought it kind of reduced our faith into some type of mystical hocus pocus, as if you're, you know, reading like it, or or mystical mumbo jumbo is, if you're reading some type of incantation that's gonna, you know, reverse a spell. But I think the point that, um, oftentimes, when there's these possessions, the person can understand different languages and that that's a that's a two-sided coin. There's there's this concept of speaking in tongues in in Christianity and there's a lot of charlatans. I think 90% of the people who who publicly display this are Maybe not being sincere. I think it said you know, there's a lot of sort of bozos that are just pretending because it's probably the easiest thing to fake.
Speaker 2:But I've also heard some really interesting stories of quote-unquote tongues, where what what I heard, for example, was was a very credible witness who told me this. There was a woman who, in there was a giant prayer session going on and she began speaking a Language, and it wasn't just a language, it was. It was um, it was a Slavic language, I can't recall which one, but it was a specific dialect from a very particular region. She started speaking this way in a church and, of course, nobody understood, except for one other person who was from this exact place where this dialect came from, and it was a direct message to that person. And While that person spoke English, everyone knew that the message that this woman had was specifically for that person, because it you know it very specifically was that that in that particular dialect in it.
Speaker 2:So so the quote-unquote tongues, you know, serve several purposes. It was a corroboration of spiritual activity, because this person was speaking a language that never heard before, new or knew anything about, and it was Directed at a very particular person in the congregation that day. So I've heard a couple of stories like that where the other person can. It seems like you know when, when there is a Either angelic or you know, you're someone's maybe indulged by the Holy Spirit, or the other side of the coin, which is demonic possession, there's this language ability. That is really fascinating, and so the the use of Latin or or Greek or whatever it may be is is kind of a, it's a litmus test. You know that, that maybe it's one way to find out if you know the person's faking it or not, and I think that that's it's something that's been, you know, brought up since, since the early chapters of the book, but I find it to be fascinating and that's that's done that way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you said Leko, again jaw, and it's бабbles a different form of communication.
Speaker 2:Yeah, interesting. Well, there's two. I think there are two versions of it. There's angelic tongues and then there's I guess tongues is in languages that we know on earth. The angelic tongues is the one I feel that is abused personally, just my opinion, but I do believe it's a thing. I mean clearly it's happened scripturally.
Speaker 2:And then my brother-in-law, who's actually staying with me, he came to town this weekend. He said that when he had his conversion experience, he had this and I'm not gonna do any justice he felt something come over him and his he didn't know about tongues and he wasn't prompted to do so and I think that's one of the I'm just tangentially I think of one of the reasons why a lot of these people are charlatans is two people I've had tried to get me to speak in tongues and they said the thing leading up to it was them telling me oh well, you've just gotta start rolling, rolling your mouth around and start undulating, and it's just gonna happen. And I'm like, well, that's not exactly what happened in the acts of the apostles. Nobody showed up waiting to start babbling nonsense. It just happened.
Speaker 2:And that's what happened to my brother-in-law. He felt something come over him and his mouth started moving and he said it was the most beautiful thing he could hear and he wasn't really in control of it and I don't know how long it lasted, but he's quite credible and I think he was being sincere and earnest and I had. He had no reason to lie about it because it was just an anecdote he shared with me. So I have heard that it is possible, but I am skeptical about a lot of the people who kind of put it on display yeah, so anyways. Yeah, so that was a fascinating thing. I think the notion of language or language ability with spiritual possession is interesting.
Speaker 1:Just one thing surely the exorcism predates like the 1662 King James version of the Bible, because prior to that all the versions were in Latin anyway.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, good point.
Speaker 3:There'll be versions in English and things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there will be now, but I'm just saying that the original version would have been in Latin and there are some branches of the church that prefer to continue the original. Yeah, that's what happened.
Speaker 4:I thought it was very interesting that some of the priests I think this is more so in chapter eight, but some of the priests preferred a specific version of the exorcism right, where some of them they know we like to do it in the vernacular, in English or what have you, and then others would say, no, we like Latin. And then some would say, well, we like the Latin, but the 1664 version, yeah, yeah, yeah. I found that was very, very interesting and when I was reading it I sort of got the. I couldn't help but think of like lucky terms in a way. So you know, if you have a good result with a certain thing, then going with it and feel that it is a superior version or something like that, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really good points. All right, let's see opinions changed Hillary.
Speaker 1:So I was. I know that the author has said a few things about this previously in the book, but the lady in question, he wrote, knew the details of our trip right down to the rift time of our arrival. I found that quite scary, in a way that you know that, all that information, even though they hadn't actually told her that anything was going to happen. She knew all about it.
Speaker 2:So that harkens back to the one of the earlier chapters with the woman who was possessed and could remote view what another priest was doing at the beach, and that gets the mind sort of turning about what some of these psychics and mediums who are capable of certain things, what's really going on behind the scenes? So it's I've never encountered, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:The story of the New Testament, isn't it Paul, who casts out a demon from a fortune teller and their master or their owner wasn't very happy because that was their sort of income, sort of sort of reminded me very much of that that even since New Testament times, disability being able to, as you said, foretell the future is a real dynamic trait.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, it's very interesting. All right, darren, any opinions changed?
Speaker 4:I guess this probably needs to be taken with a grain of salt, since I believe Dr Gallagher is a practicing Catholic, but I was impressed at reading chapter eight, in particular how he details the some of the different ways exorcisms are done in different Christian circles and it seems to me that the Catholic Church and how they approach the exorcism rights is very methodical and disciplined and cautious and that it's, I think, they treat it with a level of seriousness, that it's not something to play with or dabble in or do on a whim, rather it's a spiritual inclined, let's say, profession. And yeah, I was quite impressed reading that.
Speaker 1:I think that I think that that's how the Catholic Church works. I mean, we I didn't tell them completely different, but we got different people from lots of different denominations to come to a meeting and the Catholic Church would always tell somebody that they were going to come, whereas the other the Protestant churches were all over the place. So so I think that's sort of how the Catholic Church is run, but I think that in that way, I was quite, also quite impressed with that, because it meant that you know, you always worry that if lay people get involved, they might be overwhelmed or not able to cope with the situation.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's also a I think this is particularly the case in some of the charismatic churches that there can be a real social pressure to demonstrate successes and say, like spiritual, your spiritual worth by demonstrating your.
Speaker 4:I think they would term it something like gifts of the spirit, and and I I know from what. So I was never a charismatic, charismatic Pentecostal type of Christian, but I do have some friends who were and some who still are, and the ones who were former Pentecostals will admit to me that they they would fake spiritual gifts because they just felt such an immense social pressure to demonstrate that they had spiritual gifts as a kind of confirmation of their, their salvation. And I could see something like exorcisms in that type of environment being a very, very tricky thing, because if someone was truly demonically possessed and they went through an exorcism ritual with one of their fellow members of the congregation who who claimed to have the spiritual gift, the, the social pressure to say that it was a successful exorcism right away would be quite substantial, even though, as we know from this book what Dr Gallagher is saying, that and that other Catholic priests would corroborate this that often it takes many, many exorcisms to rid someone of of a demonic possession. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, good points. I think the whole faking, faking the gifts thing is something that I believe I've seen and I think a number of the gifts you know, you, you if you have someone who can sell, it can be faked a little bit. And speaking of the languages, I think it one of the one of the ways I would, I would be convinced by that as if it served a direct purpose. You know if, if something were happening and somebody else understood that the language that was being spoken, and I in the healing one I love. I love the healing one because you know there's, of course there are charles into fake that as well. But you know, when you see it, I think, and I have seen it and that's an amazing corroboration but it discredits the church and it is by definition anti Christ, the spirit of the anti Christ, to pretend to do these things for attention or whatever that conversation.
Speaker 2:Obviously you know what you brought up about a lot of these evangelical churches, I think, is maybe what pushed me back into the Orthodox camp after years of not have not really attending Orthodox church, and a lot of that came down to living in Asia for a decade.
Speaker 2:But I've seen, seen very often, people promoted to a rank that are quite immature and you know, all kinds of things can happen because of that. They, you know, may or may be at explicating the masses. You know, in sorry, in locating the masses with, with the wrong information, expressing feelings rather than facts, and there, you know, there's all kinds of heresies that can spring up from somebody who, just you know, maybe isn't ready for it. And I think I've seen that quite often, especially in churches here in Duluth where I've attended several Bible studies, and there's a very, you know, sincere person that's delivering the Bible study. That just is. I don't know, and who am I to say whether or not somebody's ready, but you know to say this again, I think you know, you know it when you see it, and it's. I'm not always convinced by some of these folks and I think you know they need a little more time in the oven, so to speak. So who are we even on for opinions changed right now? I mean, I'm not sure I'm going to say that myself.
Speaker 3:All right, mr Brian, yeah, so the maybe it's more new than opinions changed. I haven't appreciated again. Go back to chapter seven. You know this, this temporary loss of physical ability, be it sight or hearing or whatever I that was completely new to me and it wasn't, you know, one of the things that I had come across before or knew about, so that the fact that a demon can cause a physical, physical disability almost, and it can sort of come and go, just seemed quite, quite quite strange and novel to me. That was quite unexpected, I think.
Speaker 2:And was that alert alluded to one of the earlier chapters where a person can have a sensation of not feeling well and there's no, you know, direct cause for it and you know they maybe suggested the author maybe suggested it could be demon activity. Am I thinking of a different book?
Speaker 3:No, no, no, you're right. So earlier on I think they talked about, you know, people would have bruising and, through physical physical, the signs of being under physical attack, even though there was there was no evidence of any physical being attacking them, so that I'd sort of thought, all right, yeah, I can, I can get with that, but this ability where you can lose one of your senses, particularly I think he talks about sight and hearing because of a demon, you know, being possessed and deciding this is the way they're going to attack you. I hadn't come across that before.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's interesting, it's interesting, yeah, I think he also mentioned how pernicious it is to have a demonic possession that's attacking you in that way, because it essentially prevents you from you know. One hand, you're spiritually tormented and on the other hand, anytime a Bible is put in front of you or someone someone who from a certainly from a Christian perspective is is trying to help you with your possession, your years working, you can't read the scriptures and, yeah, it's gonna be very, very taxing, and then you know, if someone is afflicted in that way, you almost can't blame them from a human perspective of just saying, well, this is clearly not for me, forget it, I'm just not going to bother dealing with my spiritual affliction, it's just not meant for me, right, and also the pain she was the pain of her ears whenever she heard sort of the priest's talking or somebody from church who tried to come along and help her.
Speaker 3:They had to sit at the point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, good points, really good points. Alright, questions or objections? Hillary?
Speaker 1:So I'm referring to Chuck to write when the author was talking about Father Jack, who it seemed to me that that all this sexism is really taking its toll on his health. But he seemed very knowledgeable and, you know, senior figure. But he also said that even his prayers are answered in God's due time and manner and suggested that he, you know, even the exorcisms he did as a senior church person didn't didn't always go as they don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is interesting. It got me thinking about the fig tree in the Gospels, and it's an example of something not happening immediately. Even when the son of God spoke to the fig tree you shall not produce fruit nothing happened, but they came back to it and obviously was withered away, and that you know, things happen in their time. I think, yeah, that's a yeah good, good point, good point, alright. Questions or objections? Darren.
Speaker 4:So I guess this is a question in chapter 8. He's just Dr Gallagher's discussing how some decades ago there were justa dozen exorcists in the Catholic Church in the United States then, and now that has increased about tenfold and still the demand for exorcisms on those priests far exceeds their ability to perform exorcisms. Like it's just, you know, they simply don't have the time to meet the demand. And my question is you know what? What happened in the? What changed? I suppose was it an issue where, say, 30 years ago, a lot of people were demonically zest but everyone was just unaware of it and not thinking of dealing with it? Or is there something in the last 30 years that has changed that has made the demonic, demonic realm much more able to take a much firmer hold on the American population, or whatever reasons?
Speaker 2:in the early chapters of the book I believe he alluded to the notion of gradation or of possession that you know, essentially, that there are varying levels of demonic activity within a person and you know some of the symptoms of that, and I actually think it's it's much deeper than that. I think that, in terms of how the scripture alludes to the fact that we have will but not free will, I think that's very interesting, that we do have will and we can choose to do things. But Christ even says you know, you know a demon can be removed from a person, but if the person continues in their ways, and that that demon will bring in seven more. I think and this is just a personal opinion, but kind of, you're putting pieces together from the scripture and from what we see in this book and then you know, maybe, what we see. You know around the world, that people are always under the influence of something and you, when you get, you know that whisper in your ear to say something, or you get a clever thought that pops out of nowhere, even even a biting remark or a witty comment or or any old thing.
Speaker 2:I suspect that it's not always our mind at work there and I think that you know there are people who are maybe more aware of what's going on, but there are also people who are completely at the whims of whatever it is behind the scenes and they're okay with it because you know it gives them an ability perhaps to be a comedian and you need to be really sort of vulgar and to make really funny remarks or whatever it might be, and that I don't know if this, this really dovetails that well into what you just said, but I think that everyone is intermingling with, with whatever these things are all the time. Some and some people are really sort of thrashed by them, like we see in this book. But the need for, you know, demonic removal, exorcism is, you know, prominent. You know it probably more now than ever, I guess, but there's a long-winded opinion. But just kind of jumping on.
Speaker 4:Like you said, there there's a one of the Russian saints and I'm very bad at remembering their names, but have wrote a little bit about demonic activity and he, in his writings he says that the, the demons. Their most common form of I guess it would be demonic oppression, as Dr Gallagher categorizes it is that they, they seek to build addictions. So they'll start, like you said, they put it like a demon is like a bird that is flying over your head and putting thoughts in your ears, the thoughts of evil in your ears, and then it's up to our will how we respond to those thoughts and ideas of temptation. And he said you don't, don't let the demon, don't let the bird make a nest in your hair. So that would be like the, the, that addiction taking hold of your life, or that thought turning into a, an addiction that takes hold of your life. And yeah, I guess that plays a little bit into into what you had just said earlier yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm going sort of across the Western world almost.
Speaker 3:I always say it as a reservoir if you look at the number of churches and Christian communities and all right, you can. You know it's taught about how many of these people who went to church traditionally really believed or they just went because it was a socially acceptable thing to do. They had to go to church and Sunday because there's nothing else to do and everybody. It was always expected in in normal society or in decent society that you went there. So, taking all that kind of side, I'm sure there still was a reservoir of protection, almost an oculation that gave you because you went and heard the Bible, you, you, you heard the pictures, you were warned about these things, and that's just certainly in the UK is declining quite remarkably over the last 50 or 60 years. So I don't think it's any surprise that demons are able to get to get hold and become more of an issue just because, if you like, that the good side seems to be, seems to be waiting to someone.
Speaker 2:So I don't think it's very surprising sure, but you know, on the comment, or just comment on the inoculation con, the statement that you made, I think that you know even people being in the presence of Christ didn't didn't perhaps inoculate them from sinning or doing the wrong thing. And it's no surprise to anyone globally who's been to a church that you know there's only a certain population of attendees in any, you know any congregation that are really, you know, nose to the grindstone, you know, invested in what's going on. Perhaps, and then that's not, you know, my judgment on anyone. I think it's just quantifiably true. You know you go into any church and there's people that are just there because maybe they want to get their kids involved in a positive community, or or, you know, they just want a place to meet some nice people who you know might be you know, potential business partners or I don't know any reason could be invented, but that the there's only a small population that's there to to really feed on Christ, so to speak, in most congregations, I would assume.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I don't know, I don't know if you know, I don't know proximity to people performing prayers is necessarily the inoculation, unless those prayers are specifically for you, but it's an interesting point. Yeah, maybe I'm just thinking out loud. All right, let's see who are we on for. We're doing questions or objections. Is this Brian? We on Brian?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, nothing for me.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I guess the only question or objection I would have is I think that throughout the book, dr Gallagher has stated that there's a dichotomy between illness and or mental illness, rather, and non-demon instigated issues and then demon instigated issues, and I don't know if I agree with that.
Speaker 2:I think that throughout the scripture, whenever Christ is dealing with someone who has a problem, whether it be a severe demon possession or just, you know, an illness, there is, you know what. I want to let that thought maybe mature a little bit more, because I think that my assumption is that all of these things find their root in spiritual activity. But I don't know quite how to define it because I don't obviously know what's going on. But I think that maybe it's a misnomer to assume that some of these things are just innocuous issues that have nothing to do with spiritual activity. I think they all find their root in spiritual activity somehow and, like Darren said, you know, some of them come from addiction that's caused by, you know, perhaps a whisper in the ear or I don't know. Yeah, and thinking out loud, I'll have a sip of my coffee and just pretend I didn't say anything.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure I agree with that. I agree that some of them maybe, but I'm not sure about any means of being said that all ailments are spiritual. I think in the Gospel doesn't it say you know, somebody asked Jesus. I can't remember who it was. You know he brought a Neil Primm and he said was this basically, was it the mother's fault or the father's fault or the grandparents fault? And you know, I think it was a fairly clear answer. That was it was none of those. It wasn't the issue of the guy or that the person had got wasn't his fault or his parents fault or anything like that. It was just, you know, god chosen to let evil in this incarnation be there.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, yeah. But I mean I don't mean well, maybe I should have clarified it I don't mean activity as a choice by the person, but you know perhaps the evil, you know allowing that degradation, that perhaps you know mutation of a cell or whatever it might be. So it's a very unclear thought. I'm just kind of maybe thinking out loud, hoping someone will take the reins from me. I guess it's like sort of jump on that.
Speaker 4:It makes you wonder what kind of world it would be if there was no, no fall in terms of the fall in the Garden of Eden, right? So it from my understanding, in the Garden of Eden there would be no sickness, pain, destruction, that sort of thing. So then, in a sense, all all of that, whether it's addiction or illness or whatever, not that it's necessarily caused by demonic possession or the invitation of the demonic, but it's the nature of the general evil and the fall in our world.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, my brother in law and I were talking about this yesterday, as a matter of fact, and it most of it sounds good. You know, no fall, but that would also mean no more chicken sandwiches or steak or anything like that, because allegedly we're supposed to live in harmony with these things. But man, are they delicious there.
Speaker 3:You see, Hillary's just about to jump in, but so you better move on quickly, or you'll be Hillary attack, nevermind demolically attack.
Speaker 2:That sounds way more dangerous, to be honest with you.
Speaker 3:So, speaking from experience, well, I don't know, I wouldn't have had the Hillary attack so far, but it's not. It's not pleasant, I tell you.
Speaker 2:All right, well, does anyone have any final thoughts on the book?
Speaker 3:I have to say I find these, I'm finding these chapters quite easy reading, so it's almost like telling a story in a narrative. So it's yeah, I'm finding the witness a whole enjoyable and informative and certainly a topic that I've never really dared to delve into before. So I'm, I'm enjoying it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's fun. Actual topic says discussing right.
Speaker 3:No, I think there's informity. I think he says very clearly in all the cases of possession, when you delve into it, there's been something pretty sinister and you know in terms of which is covenants or making a deal with the devil. And there's a very clear choice at some stage in your life where you've you've you've entered into this or invited the demons in. And I don't think he is here. He says in all the cases, all the people may deny it to start with, it eventually comes out when it's true demonic possession, there's been an invitation for that, for the devil, or just want some kind of part with devil.
Speaker 2:On the note of scary, I made the same mistake I made a few months or a few weeks ago, when we were before we had our last book club, where I waited for everyone to go to bed and I started washing the dishes and it was dark and I listened to the audio version of the book and I swear things were flying around the corner of my eyes the whole time. I was, you know, turning my head left and right, but just me being an idiot. It's a very easy solution to this Just don't do the dishes. You're you're ahead of your time, brian. This is a don't. Don't hide your wisdom under a bushel sitting on the hilltop.
Speaker 3:But then you make it a mellowny attack if you take that advice. So perhaps that's not good advice either.
Speaker 2:It's fine. She's a willing sacrifice, all right. So who's doing closing prayer? Oh, sweet Hilary.
Speaker 1:Thank you, father, that we can meet together, that we can discuss all these things together and that we can further our knowledge of you and the world around us. I pray that you'd be with each office as we continue in your world.
Speaker 4:Amen.